In this episode, I interview two wonderful people, Grace, and Dash, about their experiences in what it is like to be autistic trans women. They both discuss a little bit about what it was like to discover that they were autistic, and share first hand what the transitioning process has been like, some challenges with it, and share their wonderful journey to self love and self acceptance. :)
In this episode, I interview two wonderful people, Grace, and Dash, about their experiences in what it is like to be autistic trans women. They both discuss a little bit about what it was like to discover that they were autistic, and share first hand what the transitioning process has been like, some challenges with it, and share their wonderful journey to self love and self acceptance. :)
Dash talks about how realizing she is autistic is helping her experiences as a preschool teacher. Having a first hand understanding of the autistic kids that she works with means that she can be the advocate that so many of us autistic people needed as children.
She shares her struggles with under stimulation and talks about various career related challenges.
She dealt with quite a bit of bullying when she was a kid from teachers and students alike; motivating her to become an advocate for the next neurodivergent generations.
Both Grace & Dash are trans women, and they share a snapshot of exactly what being trans feels like.
They share their ideas about how the world could be improved, and all of us hope to contribute to a better general understanding of the myriad of issues that so many trans people experience.
Grace mentions how HUGELY positive her transition has been for her to unmask and learn to recognize who she truly is - being freed from the box of social norms.
Dash shares her perspective on her anxieties around hormone levels, doctors who don't really understand what it feels like, along with a general gap in trans-related medical knowledge.
Both Grace & Dash are wonderful people, and we are honored to have them share their stories and ideas!
Kelsey: Hello everyone, so today we have a very special episode. Two of my good friends, Grace and Dash, we're going to share a little bit about their life stories, what it's like to be autistic, some of the struggles they face, and a few other surprise topics. So Grace and Dash, thank you so much for joining.
Grace: Thanks, oh thank you for having us. It's me, Grace. I use she, they, fade pronouns right now.
Dash: And I'm Dash, and I use she, they, fae pronouns as well.
Grace: Awesome, you stole my pronouns.
Dash: Yeah, I'm a dirty pronoun thief, that that is funny.
Kelsey: So what was it like when you realized that you're autistic? Are you formally diagnosed? What was that process like for you? Dash, you can start.
Dash: Okay, I can start. Uh, so throughout my like life I've had trouble socializing, um, uh, especially like when I was like in elementary school and the beginning of middle school. Um, I had a lot of trouble like trying to like make friends and stuff like that. Um, I I I found it hard to like understand like why people were like making fun of me for certain like affects I had or or like or certain interests that I had or the way I like, I don't know, kind of like uh express myself. Um, so I get bullied a lot and I also would get kind of emotional uh for certain things. Um, and and also my teachers didn't really help at that age either. Um, my I I did see a guidance counselor while while I was in uh elementary school, um, and my fifth grade teacher said that um I would never succeed in life and I if I remained this quote unquote immature. Um, he said that to my parents and other than that I've never really been formally diagnosed. Eventually I started having a bit of an easier time making friends but that did require a bit of masking on my part, um, which contributed to well masking. Looking back on that I didn't know I had autism back then. Um, so so it's a pretty eye opening to to realize that yeah.
Kelsey: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dash: So um so yeah looking back um yeah looking back uh masking to kind to kind of like try to like fit in and stuff which caused a bit of like social anxiety on my part. Um, eventually I came out as, oh sorry, eventually I came out as trans um in what year, two, in 20 well 2020 and then I um started medically transitioning started 2021. Um, and it was around that time I met a friend, her name was uh Iris, and Iris really helped me kind of like under like gain kind of like a new perspective on the world. It was like during that time I was undergoing a lot of like depression a lot of like dysmorphia and stuff like that, typical trans girl stuff.
Kelsey: Sounds rough to deal with.
Dash: Um and yeah, and she uh one of the discussions she had is that she noticed that I had a lot of uh interesting like qualities that she has seen in other her other friends who are autistic. And so it was at that point where I started seeing a psychiatrist to see if I uh was diagn if I do in fact have autism and I do, and kind of realizing that I kind of just felt more comfortable being myself and uh comfortable expressing myself like how I am. And also of course being uh even before I came out as or not came out before I discovered I was autistic I um I kind of noticed that a lot of my friends were kind of of a similar type and stuff. Uh Grace and I went to a fraternity called saon gamow chapter and uh you know lot of a lot of the people there are neurodivergent off and it was that group that I had the easiest time socializing with when I came into when I started college. Um and so yeah in general like once I figured out that I was that I was autistic I kind of knew more about myself and the type of people I wanted to associate with and the type of life I wanted to lead that would like best suit like you know my my inclinations and stuff like that, the type of people I want to be with for a long long time looking at Grace. Um, and ultimately kind of my like I guess leftist perspective on the world uh and stuff like that. Uh, sorry if that was like a bit of a rambly response to answer your question.
Kelsey: Yeah, it sounds like discovering that your autistic was able to give you a totally different perspective on everything that happened to you in the past.
Dash: Oh definitely. Um, of course the past is the past, I would have loved to have had because now I work in U I actually because like in partially inspired by me being neurodivergent I have autism and I will be tested for ADHD uh next month. Um, so knowing that I'm neurodivergent really dri me drove me to want to become a teacher to um to kind of like help people you know children going along that um path in life and helping them socialize and helping them be able to be advocates for themselves and stuff and you know right now I'm a preschool teacher.
Kelsey: That's awesome.
Dash: And my class we have a lot of neurodivergent kids. We have uh there's especially one that I'm really fond of uh we we we love like simming together and stuff like that and I think we've really B we've really bonded he's he's adorable he he's such an adorable little kid. Um, but it's just kind of mindblowing to hear that because you know a lot of people me and other autistic people go through life not really having supportive teachers or teach most of the teachers just don't really understand exactly and so I kind of want to be that person that can you know help you know Help The Help these kids along along in life and be that resource I wasn't able to have growing up. That's not to say I'm not h i uh I I'm happy that I am where I am now. Um, I will not I I will say that going through like you know being bullied and H and having a hard time socializing stuff like that not the be not not the best not the best Vibe, but but I am really happy that I'm here now and I'm happy to I guess help um help other neurodivergent kids lead lead fulfilling lives um yeah I yeah that's awesome.
Kelsey: Thank you, and I I bet um the experiences that you've had is also going to help you recognize it in these young children as well.
Dash: Oh for sure. Um, there are kids that I have like noticed that actually they don't think have been treated yet for or for their autism, they kid who tends to get kind of over stimulated and um has a lot of like uh and has like and like Sims a lot and stuff like that. So and I don't think he's been formally diagnosed yet but as someone who is autistic and K kosan has been more primed to see it in other people as well, um I like that I'm able to like notice that and maybe like try to act on it sooner than the school can. But the school's also honestly been really great about like neuro neurodivergent people like giving them accommodations and that sort of thing. Yeah, they they are they are fantastic about giving like kids accommodations. Uh, they have uh counselors who like do interventions with the kids and stuff like that. Um, they um allow like um they they allow like um uh therapist to work alongside the kid the kids as they go about their day and stuff like that. Um, and the the lessons we teach we like we emphasize how we like through the literature we read and the lessons and um and stuff like that we try to impart like a culture of understanding and compassion in the students so that it's not just the teachers who support the the neurodivergent kids but also the the um the community around them as well. So um that's great it's is a really nice school I'm very I'm very happy that I ended up there.
Kelsey: That's awesome, it sounds like you're in a position to to really make a pivotable pivotal difference in so many of these students lives.
Dash: Thank you.
Kelsey: And I can't even imagine like what having that support like that from a teacher at such a young age someone who actually understands and as a preschooler like I can't even imagine how how much that's going to benefit these students lives it's almost UNF it's almost unfathomable honestly.
Dash: Yeah I'm I'm really happy that um that I guess like we didn't have these resource I didn't I definitely didn't have these resources uh back then when when I was in elementary school. I'm glad there are there are schools that are uh becoming more and more um uh that that that are able to like have these resources nowadays. I'm really grateful for like schools like the one I work at and uh stuff like that.
Kelsey: Yeah and it especially amazes me that you're able to work with children and not be constantly over simulated.
Dash: Yeah I will say I there are points when I do become over stimulated and what I do then is I just kind of like say oh I need to step out for a bit and then someone will kind of sub in for me for like a few minutes and then I'll like come back in. So there is still an element of over stimulation but it's um compared to like Grace's current job I feel like the the the stim like the the extent to which I get over stimulated and stuff like that is less than the um than the field I actually grab graduated under because or not graduated but the field I was studying under because originally I was studying to uh be in computer science. And through realizing that I was like autistic and stuff like that made me feel validated in because I I've had internship experience working for companies like pan Pandora and workday as a uh as a software engineer and it was the and it was the most um un stimulating work to me. I barely could get anything done I did not get a single yeah I didn't get a single project done in um when I was in when I was in Pandora. They still paid me 37 an hour they haven't they they they gave me my full pay and I haven't done a single project for them I I'm so [ __ ] happy about that. Anyways, but um Pandora if you're listening sorry I do Post Pandora no I'm I'm just joking I'm joking.
Kelsey: Gotcha gotcha.
Dash: Uh yeah, uh but realizing that I was autism that I have autism and possibly ADHD made me feel valid and not feeling like I had to pursue this thing that I eventually was initially interested in one point but then eventually found that wasn't the most stimul work on the planet and stuff like that.
Kelsey: So so would you say you're more prone to under simulation what's up would you say...
Dash: Yeah yeah yeah yeah I get I yeah working just like uh typing all day at a computer I found very un uh very unstimulating. Even I even had the theory that if I worked in an industry it was like I had an interest in because Pandora I'm very interested in music and Pandora happened to be in the field of music I thought that would be like self uh what's the word self-rewarding MH but it was still it was even more boring than the workday work I was doing yeah. Uh it was just bug testing and stuff. I don't know how people can wake themselves up to work 9 to 5 just sitting on a computer on Daye. Working as a teacher feels much more fulfilling to me and I feel like I'm able to make a more direct impact upon someone especially so me having me being neurodivergent. Yeah um and distancing my identity from like M from money and stuff like that I feel Society is way too like Guided by money and stuff again sorry if I keep rambling I I tend to go off on tangents sometimes.
Kelsey: Yeah no no worries at all. Yeah it's it's interesting to hear the way that you've thought about your stimulation requirements and planned your career around that. I've kind of done the same but in reverse and in in a way I'm a I'm a programmer so I'm in office every day and typing and for me I'm really prone to over simulation so being in that calming more quiet environment and not around other people as much has helped a lot so that's really interesting how autism can present in so many different ways and some people can be really prone to under stimulation like you or others can be really prone to over simulation like me it's just really fascinating to see the differences in that.
Dash: Oh yeah I I know it's actually a very interesting Dynamic for me and Grace because uh Grace tends to get over stimulated so I tend to well I don't I I will say also can get over stimulated well I don't like going to parties or um loud bars and stuff uh I I yeah I I cannot I cannot handle those places that well um but places like we actually went to a uh earlier today we went to this L this really cool Latin American Mall in Georgia and uh Grace I feel or I I didn't feel too over stimulated there but Grace did and it's it's it's interesting finding things that we both are like interested in stuff we eventually like really found an interest in hiking and biking and stuff like that it's very open and it's very calming um and so it it defin I think it definitely meets both of our like stimulation requirements and stuff like that.
Kelsey: That's awesome. So is Grace also autistic?
Grace: I am yes. Um I guess I can talk about my story uh yeah so I uh I actually realized I was autistic about a year and a half ago um thanks to Kelsey and thanks to Dash. Um I like I don't know when I when I met you Kelsey um like uh last two summers ago um you kept insisting that I was autistic and I was like there's no way I'm just an introvert and I just have social anxiety and then you're like no you're autistic and I'm like okay. Um and then um when I went back uh I I met Kelsey over the summer during summer internship and then um I went back to college for classes and um during that time I met dash at my fraternity and literally the first time we like really ever hung out um I saw Dash like cooking in the fraternity kitchen and I was like Hey Dash are you autistic I've been questioning whether I have autism or not and I want to learn about your experience. And she was like yeah I am and then so we talked for like three hours um and oh yeah iris is also there and literally that night the first time Dash and I hung out um he helped me actually finally like realize that I had autism which uh I feel bad that I didn't believe you Kelsey but we got there in the end.
Kelsey: To be clear I didn't exactly say you're autistic I was talking to you and you're like ah I've sensory issues too and I was like oh yeah that's like one of the number one traits of autism and then and then you you started talking about other things you're experiencing and I'm like oh yeah that's another trait of autism and so we just kind of went back and forth at breakfast like yep that's an autistic trait that's an autistic trait that's an autistic trait.
Grace: I thought you were just pulling stuff out of your butt.
Kelsey: No really you thought I was just bullshitting.
Grace: deals with yeah oh Sur surely everyone feels pain from polyester [Laughter] Fabrics they they feel bad.
Kelsey: Um did you ever have those thoughts like like going through your life just thinking everyone just had to suffer through these things yeah what was that like?
Grace: Yeah I don't know I mean like well I think some of my family members are also Nar virgent and so like it I I didn't feel completely like the um I know the odd one out because it was like I'm not doing well but also there's another person who's not doing well so I guess it's kind of normal. Um I don't know I honestly didn't question it I was just like I you know going to Disney World is just a terrible miserable overstimulating experience for everyone but especially for me um and things like that. And um I mean I'm I'm also transgender and it was very much the same kind of like every guy wants to be a girl and turns out that's not true and turns out I was trans and also autistic.
Kelsey: Wow that's really interesting so you thought yeah you thought it was normal that every guy really wants to be a girl?
Grace: Yeah I mean being a girl is not to be biased but it's way cooler. Um I think trans masks are valid but I also don't understand them I kid um yeah but like I that was a joke just in case anyone missed that yes to any trans masculine people out there you are the most handsome wonderful gentleman out in the world and I wish you the best.
Kelsey: A that's cute.
Grace: And yeah anyways when like one thing that I found helpful when I was like trying to figure out if I had autism or not was like doing a bunch of research of course on like and hearing about other people's like other autistic people's experiences with autism as well as like trying the like coping mechanisms that some autistic people use and just seeing if they help even if they feel unnatural or even if like you weren't if I wasn't sure that I was actually experiencing like those kind of autistic symptoms.
Kelsey: Um you mean like simming and that sort of thing?
Grace: Yeah like I I don't know I had repressed my stemming through years and years of masking and I was like when I I was like okay apparently this is this helps autistic people and it couldn't hurt to try so like in my private in like in private in my like dorm room I just tried stemming and I was like w this is really nice but also I'm definitely still not artistic it's just really nice it feels nice to do this. Um and or like I don't know if I noticed I was like getting kind of exhausted or irritable or whatever even if I didn't understand that to be simulation. Um or like if I was like in like a grocery market or something or a loud place like um I don't know I'd never really thought to take note of how I felt from those like uh high amounts of stimulation. Um and like trying even if I didn't really feel over stimulated at the time to like I don't know step away from the noise or put in like uh earbuds that help cancel out the noise.
Kelsey: Yeah.
Grace: And then like that gave me frame of reference of like oh this is I actually do feel better in these situations and even if I didn't really obviously make or if I didn't superc consciously make like uh a notice that like these over stimulating environments are actually over stimulating like um being able to feel that difference helped a lot in helping me like come to the realization that I did in fact have autism.
Kelsey: Yeah I don't know masking is really hard to like it's tough it's tough because when you've masked your whole life it's like who am I and and it's it's hard sometimes to even get in touch with those needs.
Grace: Yeah.
Kelsey: Yeah what was it like when you put in earplugs in a loud environment and and when you started like really being more aware of those needs do you feel like maybe when you were growing up that you weren't encouraged to express your needs?
Grace: Oh definitely yeah. Um yeah honestly it's been really really helpful like I feel so much more in tune with like how I'm feeling and what I need and feel I don't know I feel like it's a lot easier to actually take care of myself.
Kelsey: That's awesome.
Grace: Um and not just sometimes feel really awful and irritable.
Kelsey: Yeah like I feel so angry and I don't know why and then oh oh wait we just went into a loud environment that's why.
Grace: Yeah. Um and so on that end it's been really nice. Um oh Dash is feeding the bunny and I'm getting distracted one second.
Kelsey: It's okay well I'm here to keep us on track.
Grace: Thank you.
Kelsey: I know for me when whenever I put in earplugs it's like someone is like giving me a hug almost it's hard to describe but it's like yeah it's like an instant calming effect instant increase in calm and it's just so it's so mindblowing it it and I think the mind-blowing part of it is that for most people wearing earplugs would just reduce the volume and that's it for me I feel all that neural chaos start to calm down in an instant.
Grace: Mhm no yeah and I can just focus and relax I literally I put in earplugs and I can feel my body relaxing.
Kelsey: Yeah 100% it's wild yeah.
Dash: Uh also CBD I've found to be very helpful.
Kelsey: Oh my God CBD is an absolute Lifesaver yeah yeah CBD is is awesome if you're over stimulated and you take even just a tiny amount of C DD it helps so much.
Grace: Yeah. Um also I'm going to this is a complete tangent but I I need to put this out there because I like I want to rant about this I am transgender and queer and autistic and what... sorry I didn't say anything keep going okay um sorry Dash whisper something in my ear and I got distracted I'm so sorry.
Kelsey: I'm so sorry it's okay.
Grace: I got distracted I'm sorry I I saw the Buddy and she was really [ __ ] cute.
Kelsey: Now we have seen the um the the person with ADHD and autism and the person with only autism um play out where this is honestly a great example the autism person can't switch Focus quickly enough and then forgets what she was talking about originally.
Grace: Yeah sorry.
Kelsey: So you you said that you're trans queer and autistic.
Grace: Yeah yeah and um thank you for the help I appreciate you're welcome. Um and and and there's a and like there's I don't know there's studies that like correlate uh like show a higher correlation between like trans people and autistic people um as opposed to like trans people uh as opposed to like non or I guess n typical people and like I don't know I've heard a lot of people say I'm sure most people don't actually care about this but I care so I'm going to talk about it I've heard a lot of people say like I don't know or like deny well one deny like um gender firming trans health care because they're autistic of like oh you don't know anything about yourself and like kind of infantilizing autistic people and not allowing them to get the healthare that they deser erve as well as like oh there must be some like correlation between like in the brain between like transgender and autism and I'm not saying that that doesn't exist but also in my experience and I'm not going to um I am kind of saying this is a common experience but I'm not uh applying this to everyone um like I think me realizing that I was transgender was crucial for me also realizing that I was autistic uh because like same I I grew up like I don't know I grew up like a straight uh very privileged like upper middle class male dude. Um and like I don't know when I'm when it that that's a very like closed bubble of like this is how you have to behave and this is how you have to look and this is how you have to be and I spent so much of my time trying to fit in that bubble and not doing a very good job um but then when I came out as queer I was like I'm not in the bubble anymore I can be literally whatever or whoever I want and then that helped me realize I was trans after I realized I was queer and I was like okay I can also be a girl and then with that then it's like well I'm weird anyways like I don't need to try to conform or be normal like I if I'm autistic then like I don't know I feel like when I came out as like or when I realized I was queer there was kind of like a grief period of like I'm not normal anymore I'm not part of this like I I know this is a very privileged uh thing to say but I was a very privileged kid.
Kelsey: I really appreciate you sharing this perspective I would love to hear everything about it.
Grace: Thank you um and I would love to info dump about it too um I yeah like I don't know like it it it was such a different way of thinking of like I'm in this I I didn't really think about it as having to exist in this kind of box of this is what me as a straight dude needs to look like but like I very much spent so much of my time and energy trying to fit in that box and then it took a long time to like realize that I could even step out of that box and then realize that I was queer and then once I was out of that box then it's like the world is my oer I can be and do whatever I want.
Kelsey: And and then so you had a lot of restricted self-expression.
Grace: Yeah yeah exactly and so I'm not saying this is true for all autistic and trans or autistic and queer people but like I can definitely see how other people could have a similar experience to mine where like if you realize your trans then you're already a weird person I mean okay trans people are not weird but I'm using normative language of like...
Kelsey: I'm laughing because it's relatable like I'm not trans but I can relate to pretty much every single word that you've said where you feel like you're trapped into a certain box you have to behave in a certain way the way that you're expected to behave and that anything outside of those expectations is unacceptable.
Grace: Yeah exactly. Um and then from there it's like okay I'm I'm like crippy weird I'm my sexuality is all over the place I'm trans and I'm also neur Divergent and then it's like I don't know I I'm I graduated uh last year with a computer engineering degree um but in large part due to realizing like my identity um I am in the process of trying to make a very uh dramatic career shift from engineering into social work um specifically for like lgbtq and uh n Divergent people cuz like I don't know I found my people.
Kelsey: We definitely need more allies that's for sure.
Grace: Yeah and and I want to and I want to support people cuz cuz like you like people like you Kelsey who helped me when I was like trying to figure stuff out and I I want to I want to if if there's other people who don't have anyone like that then thank you Grace at the very least I want to I want to be that for others.
Kelsey: That's awesome so wanting to give other people the support that you didn't have and that inherent understanding.
Grace: Yeah yeah exactly.
Kelsey: That's fantastic.
Grace: So that's that's my long rant and monologue yeah.
Kelsey: Um I think that's really interesting one thing I wanted to add to that is I've read a lot of the research surrounding gender in the brain and the correlations between autistic people and trans people and I'll give a short concise summary of my understanding it seems that there at least at this point there is no specific part in the brain where gender identity really is so the whole male female brain all of those types of research have actually been debunked which makes yeah makes it all the more confusing to be honest because it's like okay so if there's no woman brain and there's no man brain then how do people come up and form their gender identities and so I find it really interesting that you realized you were transgender first and then you realized you're autistic and not the other way around because I think that sometimes people maybe realize they're autistic and then because they're autistic they don't either see or conform to what is typical and what is what they feel would be socially required of them so then that allows them to really think about what they want outside of that bubble of Conformity. I find it really fascinating that you realized you were transversed so you you you you had to go I bet that was difficult for you to go past that bubble of what you felt was expected of you.
Grace: Yeah um I mean I don't have anything to compare against my I only know what my experience is like but um yeah I don't know like I to be honest I I don't think I knew a single autistic person before you Kelsey which really I met you after I realized I was like after I came out as trans and I had known some like trans and other career people.
Kelsey: Yeah I think around the time we met that was like week four of me realizing I was autistic like it was pretty recent it was pretty recent and that's why I was talking about it cuz I was like holy [ __ ] this is like mind-blowing like it was like I couldn't believe it honestly. I did not realize that really it was that soon after you reler you were autistic too I I mean like the way seemed like you had like years of knowledge and experience under your belt that was like two weeks hyper Focus some hyper fixation for you and oh yeah.
Dash: And and was what was I what was I yeah I really I I I like originally like I I forgot to add this but like I had the like like throughout like I don't know since like actually you know know what's funny the first person who has ever told me that it could I could have autism was my cousin who he's like uh and I think he has autism too but um but he he he like told me he saw some things in me and this was like when I was like maybe 14 that's like the first time I've ever heard well it was the first time I like I knew what autism was was the first time I was like me autism interesting and then I was told I could have and so it kind of like stuck in my head what what if I do have autism and then there's someone else who told me that I could have autism maybe it was my first therapist.
Kelsey: Wow people actually told you like that's that's blows my mind.
Dash: Yeah people were like Oh I thought you knew and then just never told me and I'm like age 26 getting my diagnosis like thing is is like I didn't like really give it well it was something that was like in the back my head but it was like I told that to my mom and my mom was like oh you don't have autism or like you give ice it's like the old like oh you don't have autism you give ey contact or something like that oh yeah um or like I know you you you don't have autism autism is this some preconceived notion I was just like oh okay I guess I don't have autism and then yeah then someone else told me I think it was my first therapist but I'm not 100% sure.
Kelsey: Um unfortunately there's so many harmful stereo types about what autism looks like people think that the only form of autism is someone who doesn't make eye contact someone who throws temper tantrums and a white male and there's so many ways that autism can express outside of that stereotype it's unfortunate yeah that it's there's so much ignorance surrounding it.
Dash: Exactly and um and because I've held I've like held and it was like then like after a while I was like if I was autistic then I wouldn't want to know because I don't want to have uh I don't I don't want to use it as a crutch and that was my original thought like thought about it but then and then eventually like finding out that I was autistic you know helped me out more because it made me more aware of like what I needed what my needs were and how I can try to meet those needs and it kind of actually helped me get out of my depressive my my body this morphia states and stuff like um depression and stuff like that and wow um and and on one hand I don't think it's good to put like labels on things and say like oh you are not you are you are not neurotypical and stuff like that I feel like the idea of neurot typicality is derived from a it only applies to like a very specific type of person that is able to quote unquote be productive in the workplace and um stuff like that traits that are conducive to a capitalist sort of society but and then people who are not people who have ADHD oh they have ADHD they need to take meds to be if you have ADHD you need to take meds to be able to participate in society and be treated in this way and stff like ADHD people are can multitask and some people a lot of people of ADHD cannot stand in the workplace and back and back before capitalism was a thing they were I I think I've heard like people who who had like ADHD were like some of the best hunters because they could like focus in on things and stuff like that and it's only nowadays when it's considered a quote unquote issue because we have this notion of capitalism and that and that we everybody must work work together to make the must work under uh work uh work on the clock for eight hours to make number go up but...
Kelsey: So you think that our society mostly sees people's worth and selfworth as a measure of how productive they are and not independently of that?
Dash: I I think a lot of it is like seen as that like the not I believe a lot of or I don't I I I I say a lot of this but I I say a lot of this without really a lot of knowledge on so sociology and stuff like that but I think our notion lot of our Notions on neurot typicality is based on Norms perpetuated by capitalism and how people are expected to like behave in a capitalist Society. Is that controversial I don't know you're free to to share any opinions you want to even if they are controversial I I honestly like don't know if it's a bad take or not um and this it's just like a theory I've kind of had that like it's good to have it's good to know what you have so you know how you want to be treated how and what resource and know what resources you need and stuff like that but at the same time I don't think it's right to like de like not demonize but like stigmatize these certain like types of people and be like oh you're lazy you're so and so and stuff like that I feel a lot of like the Notions of like laziness yeah I hate that word so much yeah uh I I I forget Grace you you're talking about like one of your psych psychology friends mentioned that like a lot of our study of psychology is like based off of the notion of like a a very neur neurotypical notion or something like that.
Grace: Yeah I think that in particular the medical system it's really difficult because if you're a neurod Divergent woman who is going through different struggles and you go to a doctor and you try to talk about those struggles at best like I mean at worst the doctor has no frame of reference for what you're even talking about because there's such a gap in that cognitive empathy between you know if I say this fabric is the reason I'm crying another person who has never had sensory issues might really struggle to even imagine that because of those cognitive empathy gaps.
Kelsey: And and so I think that definitely plays a really big role having the communication and cognitive empathy gaps between neurotypical and neurode Divergent people it it can make it really challenging to get the right Medical Care even.
Grace: Yeah especially if you're so accustomed to just ignoring your own needs in favor of the comfort of other people.
Kelsey: It's a big problem cuz you get used to that you make that a habit and then that can be really harmful and a a doctor or someone might be asking you like how much pain are you in and you don't know you can't even give a number because because you're not even used to being in tune with those needs.
Grace: Yeah.
Dash: Yeah it's a tricky situation for sure if we don't actually listen to like minority populations and what their lived experiences actually are then oh it's no wonder that we don't really do a good job at helping anybody.
Kelsey: Yeah well I have a a question on that note I have heard that a lot of doctors aren't required to know anything about trans people's experiences and I would imagine that would be extremely difficult if you're trans and you're trying to get the care that you need and then a doctor doesn't even know what a follicle phase is yeah or ludal phase like um I didn't mean to interrupt I'm so sorry.
Dash: No problem no problem.
Kelsey: Yeah so what what is like what's your experience like with that is it really difficult to have doctors take you seriously?
Dash: Yes oh my God so this was the start of when I was first experiencing like um well not first experiencing B dismorphia but like when I it was kind of the trigger of how I ended up in a depression for almost two years like I am the I am the type of person that or i' I've gotten better at this but who like wants to make sure everything is perfect has all their ducks on a row I used to be very much that person like a Perfection autistic and stuff autistic and kind of realize my needs and stuff like that I I eventually started letting go of that and becoming better with that um but uh a while ago when I was still very you know academically oriented I used to want to make sure all my ducks were in a row I would um uh and want to make sure everything is like going smoothly like with grades or like with plans and that everything's in the right way.
Kelsey: Yeah.
Dash: And that also extended to hormones and stuff so I started yeah so I started um my journey with HRT with cumin and they're they're really great resource like I um and this was before I I discovered I was autistic um uh they they were um they were they they are they are very accessible they are very efficient in getting people the help they need uh they're they're great they're a great company but the person the the doctor I I was given um who prescribed me my hormones when I started the hormones I I was uh I was for the most most part fine but it was when apparently the best way to take your to take um estrad pills for maximum efficiency because of how it's broken down in the liever is to take it out of your tongue so I for for a long time I kept experiencing hot flashes or what I thought were hot flashes and in my head and what I've read what read on Reddit uh which I uh was that you know if you get hot that might mean your hormone levels are really low so I would ask the doctor hey I'm getting hot flashes uh what should I do about this and then he was like oh you should just drink water you're it's probably okay it's probably just anxiety.
Kelsey: Um and that's the worst response like this.
Dash: Yeah and even if it was in my head it's still something that I felt was happening and I wanted and I need help with at the time I didn't have a therapist which I probably should have um Looking Back Now I probably should have had a therapist I actively saw at the time but I didn't I didn't know it was anything more than like medical or whatever so I was like oh I'm I'm probably not dissolving this efficiently um maybe it's maybe some of the yesterday I was getting I'm swallowing some of it so I have to make sure I dissolve it perfectly and if I don't then that would make me anxious throughout the day and stuff like that and then the hot flash is like still kind of continue so then I uh looked up online and like and started becoming very hyperfocused about like how HRT works and so then I tried like swallow my pills orally and then I went back to and then I would go back to like dissolving them and then I would try injections and then I would go back to uh pills and I would always just feel worried that my estrogen was just never working because I would feel like hot flashes or something that I would uh have perceived as a reversal of my of like my progress like oh my hair is getting darker or uh stuff like that and I would tell this to my doctor and he's like it's it's fine you're probably just anxious um and so like even though I felt like I was having all these like problems and stuff like that I I didn't I I I really I didn't know really how I could communicate my issues to them because I was like feeling something you were dismiss and yeah and I was just kind of like immediately dismissed.
Kelsey: So what so did you find out what it turned out to be?
Dash: It was Pro it was eventually it just kind of stopped after a while like the The Hot Flashes so it could have just I I eventually like found like a while later that it was just like sometimes people like when you change hormones that is just something that could happen um but I didn't know that at the time that I didn't find that information.
Kelsey: Oh so the doctor never communicated that with you.
Dash: Yeah and then eventually I just eventually I switched doctors to a different a person I could see like in person and stuff because I thought you know if they could see me I can be checked out and stuff like that and uh and and you know they seemed very caring it was a little harder to get in touch with them because instead of being online based like humed it was in person and they didn't really have a place that I can like email like my doctor and stuff I had to like put in a call and stuff like that so they were a lot less accessible accessible I later f kind of found out and if I mentioned like an issue they would like kind of end up like kind of confused like what do you mean this or what do you mean that and stuff like that and um and eventually it's like it resulted me getting into a really bad habit of like continually changing my HRT dose because I was really anxious about oh I see this my my my body hair is coming back I'm getting Bo smell again or something like that and this isn't working I was never assured that my HRT was doing what it should be doing so I just kept changing [ __ ] in that messed with my mental space and I eventually had to like stop school for a while because it was just so bad um yeah.
Kelsey: Yeah that sounds difficult I would really I would really be curious to hear from your perspective and from Grace's perspective what is it feel like to have that body dysmorphia?
Dash: Yeah I mean I mean at least for me it was like I would like look in the mirror and I'll be like I am visibly reverting because of this or I I mean that's how it manifested for me because that is kind of like how I Associated it with like my anxiety about hormone levels and stuff like that I was like I am reversing this looks mask and the HRT is not going to work and is not working and so on and like stuff that you know I would I would like talk to my friend Iris and she would be like I don't see any reversals I don't see any like even big changes either so it's like um so it's like it looking back it was almost definitely in my head but then even when I saw like my my first therapist and the reason why I switched was because her response to everything was just kind of confusion like she was supposed to be a specialist in like gender care and I would just be like I'm feeling like I'm I'm having this or I'm feel like that I'm having that is this normal and she'd be like I don't know what you're talking about and I just felt completely invalidated by that person so I switched therapists and yeah.
Kelsey: I'm sorry you had that experience it can be really tough to communicate how you're feeling and what you're experiencing to have someone who can actually receive it especially in the medical field and I I wish there were I wish there was a way that that could be improved.
Dash: Same and yeah like I would like even like I mean I feel like with people who have autism and stuff like that may like and how they could be in tune to like certain things and not other things like there's just kind of a realm of experiences that is kind of hard to communicate to a neurotypical person and luckily I did find um another therapist that was a lot easier to talk to about these things and they and they were able to help me a lot with a lot of my uh anxieties of hormones um which you know on top of being you know diagnosed with autism and um and um and having my friend Iris who helped me through a lot of my like that depressive moments I was kind of able to like you know kind of chill out about stuff oh yeah also psychedelic usage of course that that also helped but um but yeah so so yeah that's that's at least how the body dysmorphia manifested in me now it's now it's now it's here's Grace with the weather.
Kelsey: So Grace what does it feel like for you to have body dysmorphia like I so I'm I'm not trans so it I'm asking because it's it's hard to really imagine um what that would feel like from from your perspective I would definitely be interested in hearing about that.
Grace: Kelsey imagine if you had like really thick body hair all over your body and like a beard and stuff okay and I don't know like the beard alone sounds like sensory hell.
Dash: Really quickly there's a as far as I'm aware there's a bit of a distinction between dysphoria and body dysmorphia um dysphoria I think it's closer to what Grace was describing but dysmorphia is more like when I see things in the mirror that aren't really there and it can impact both cysts and trans people equally like for me when I like looked in um the mirror like I would be like oh this is like this is uh this does not look fem or like oh this is like becoming like thicker and and stuff like that and what whereas hormones helped my disphoria I still had a lot of dysmorphia because of my anxiety over hormones I just wanted to add in that clarification.
Kelsey: Yeah thanks for adding that I I appreciate that distinction I think that's definitely important to to keep in mind so so sorry for interrupting so dysmorphia is like when you are looking in the mirror and something seems like misshapen or out of place that sort of thing.
Dash: Yeah and that's and that's I believe like stuff like Bia like you know believing you're like thinking you're fat but you're not actually fat and stuff like that um so like for me it's like I'm looking it's like I'm looking at a different person than how people would normally perceive me as I'm seeing things.
Grace: Yeah like like P like I think perception is entirely like sub like subjective and stuff like that and I can like look at myself in the mirror in like two completely different ways and stuff like that so like when I'm when I have when I was like really dysmorphic and stuff like that I would look in mirror and be like this is revering this is that this is bad but in reality you know that wasn't really happening and stuff like that.
Kelsey: So I bet that feed in a lot to the dysphoria wouldn't it?
Grace: Yes oh definitely. This is back with the weather hi it's me with the weather trans people are valid um all all all of that to say Dash turned out to be the most beautiful woman in the world.
Dash: A just know you gra you're the you're the Prest you're the kiss attack.
Grace: Um yeah I don't know D Foria sucks I thankfully haven't um experienced like uh the extent of like dysmorphia and anxiety that Dash um experienced um but like yeah dysphoria is the absolute [ __ ] worst and um gender affirming healthc care is literally life-saving medication um yeah I don't know like to be able to be yourself.
Kelsey: Yeah like before I realized I was trans I don't know I just like never I I had uh what's it called when you like push an emotion down and don't allow yourself repression or suppression.
Grace: Yeah I repressed thank you yeah I repressed a lot of um that dysphoria and um like didn't really ever care to take care of myself and just never I I don't know I I it it it led to a lot of like depression and apathy and just not caring for my body at all and then when I was like oh I'm trans um then that helped like un repress or unsuppress a lot of those things and um like um yeah I don't know I I I just for an example of what dysphoria be like sometimes times um I've struggled with voice dysphoria um I am a transfem but I have a pretty mask Voice still um and um a bit ago I was talking to my therapist about like uh my voice dysphoria and during that conversation with my therapist like the dysphoria hit me so hard that like I I couldn't bear to hear myself talk anymore but I was also still like chatting with my therapist and so I just like in pure misery it it was like I have a mouth but I can't speak and I want to talk to you about what I'm feeling but doing so requires me to talk and that is such an unbearably unpleasant and wow awful EXP experience that I am now just sitting in silence crying.
Kelsey: So do you think that dysphoria triggered selective mutism?
Grace: Um I guess you could describe it as that it didn't really feel mute like because I could technically I mean I could still talk it was just like talking was such a strong reminder that hey you sound like a guy that I couldn't deal with that pain at that time and so I chose not to talk.
Kelsey: Yeah yeah that's rough I'm sorry that you have to go through that.
Grace: Thanks um yeah I don't know it's a it's a transitioning has been a very difficult but very very rewarding journey I it it's been such a incredible thing to be able to look in the mirror uh over the months and like more times than I've ever in the past like actually be happy with how I look and that's just not an emotion or an experience that I've ever had before before uh like uh before I started transitioning um wow yeah uh I will also say um sure as hell would be a lot nicer if uh the world wasn't so an agonistic towards trans people please.
Kelsey: Yeah yeah definitely agree with that and unfortunately I think that a lot of the a lot of the an antagonistic Tendencies comes from ignorance people are afraid of what they don't know and uh I think that's why it's so important to share your story because people don't have any alternate perspective to to hear if they've never talked to someone who's different from them if they've never even thought about someone who's different from them podcast episodes like these are I mean you you could be helping and affirming millions of people right now.
Grace: Yeah yeah um I I also do want to point out I think uh when a lot of people talk about like being transgender a lot of it is focused on like dysphoria and a lot of the negative emotions associated with being trans I also to clarify that n trans people experiences for you and they are also valid um but like um I don't know for me just to make things clear and to try to help change uh I don't know help reframe The Narrative on trans people like for me my experience of being trans has most clearly been an experience of like learning to love myself and accept myself and be the person that I want to be and there's been a lot of pain along the way and a lot of things are difficult and suck but for me I feel like being trans is such a positive and wonderful thing and I'm very proud and happy of who I am.
Kelsey: That's so fantastic I I'm really glad to hear that I think that I think sometimes people can get trapped and the perceptions of themselves and and of how others see them to the point where they lose touch with their needs but it sounds like that by realizing you are trans it has allowed you to get in touch with your needs and how you want to live your life.
Grace: Yeah yeah 100%.
Kelsey: And that's so important especially if you grew up in a way to be continually expected to just ignore your your own needs whether that's from a sensory perspective or whether that's from a gender perspective I think it's awesome that you're doing that self analysis to be able to to recognize who you are.
Grace: Thank you um yeah I really like the way you put that of like um learning to recognize and um actually take care of your needs as a human being it's tough people don't always teach you how to do that I certainly wasn't taught thank you dash for being a cool people Co teacher.
Kelsey: So I would love to ask since both of you are trans and both of you are autistic I I bet that bring you a lot closer in many ways because you have a similar life experience.
Dash: Yes yes.
Kelsey: When you met was it like holy [ __ ] she's on my wavelength what was it like?
Dash: She she she she she is so like I could ever asked for a better girlfriend she is the best person in the planet a I'm saying this on live television this is the best girlfriend ever all your girlfriend's [ __ ] God oh my God I'm sorry that can categorically not be true because Dash is actually the best girlfriend ever um but I will say yeah being being trans and autistic uh together has been really fun and cool we go we we we talk about so many things that have a lot of self- realizations and learn a lot from each other and also stem a lot we stem a lot I'm slapping her face right now yeah I'm committing domestic abuse I'm scratching her arm right now I'm being nice yeah um.
Kelsey: I'm so glad that you were able to find each other and find another partner who really understands from a first person perspective what it's like.
Dash: Yeah oh yeah for like the longest time I've like I don't know I've had so much trouble like I don't know being what's the word um committed in a relationship or or engage whatever the word is I don't know yeah that's yep my I mean my my first I guess uh serious partner was long distance anyway so that already made things difficult my next partner who was fans and also like in um and also happened to not be a Million Miles Away um was a lot was it was it was it was better from the distance but at the same time I I don't know I I just felt it was like hard to like really like Vibe and like feel like really deeply and stuff like that and um and honestly like the first person was it like dating a neurotypical person have I dated a neurotypical person um oh yeah the person that watched the office that's right that's right um so sorry to sorry to all the office fans uh it's a it's a it's a show um so um I mean it just it always felt really hard to relate to another person or express myself like the like or express myself the like truly freely and stuff and I never I don't know I never felt like I could fuse together with this person and become one and it wasn't until and it wasn't until Grace where I kind of found that person and and Grace well Grace being the little like humble little little little thing that she is is always like I'm okay and stuff like that but like literally like I know I just I just feel for her so much and stuff like that and I just want to protect her at all costs she is she is like like if I I didn't really know like what love could feel like until I met her and then she like and it's just like just love her she's amazing.
Kelsey: That's fantastic.
Dash: I I I am this is why I say I'm like despite the challenges I put up with like through school and through depression and [ __ ] I'm happy where I ended up I'm HP I'm even happy that I took as long as I as many years off as I did because otherwise I wouldn't have met Grace.
Kelsey: That's awesome.
Dash: And I and I wouldn't be here in this cool little gay not gay commune but I I live in a commune uh that's like really cool and stuff um and and yeah I'm really H and I'm really happy I I I I I was I was able to understand like what closeness like really meant in love with through Grace and this is why I say grace is the best girlfriend on the planet.
Kelsey: That's awesome yeah it's it's incredible to be able to emotionally connect with another person who just gets it and gets it in a way that you don't even have to explain it.
Grace: He gets it sorry about being autistic right now.
Kelsey: You don't ever have to apologize for being who you are okay that for me that the the like she gets it is is is is is is is so true for me too like I remember I don't know like I Dash was the first person I ever dated um and I don't know how I landed with such a perfect individual on the first uh time but I am not complaining she is amazing and perfect and wonderful um but like I I don't know I remember thinking a lot of the times of like if I ever get a partner I guess all of these things that I am and like to do and all of my passions I will kind of just have to put them aside and hide them for my because they're too weird and like how could anyone ever accept me like this I'm this stuff has got to go um and um I don't know I'm so thankful that like I I that Dash has been so accepting and affirming of like everything that I am and like um especially with like autism like I can just be goofy and stim and like get overstimulated and uh like be autist be an autistic [ __ ] um and like you don't have to suppress yourself have the freedom to actually be fully myself no bars held back I don't know what that phrase is English phrases suck um.
Kelsey: I'm so glad that you have found someone you can be free with yeah without needing to suppress yourself you can just say what's on your mind speak directly and not have to mask.
Grace: Yeah Dash is staring at me really scared I love um well I had I had another question for you too what what do you wish that the world knew about autism and in the way that autistic people live their lives?
Dash: Um we're and I feel like it's like stigmatized and [ __ ] like that and of course there's all these like oh autistic people are like this or autistic people don't stare and stuff but it's like we're all around you we're fing your homes I'm just kidding um but um like I don't know we're nice people I I don't I don't I don't think like at least for me I don't think my autism is a bad thing I am glad I am the weird goofy little thing that I am and and and I don't have to be I don't have to be your friend and stuff like that and I understand that there's like certain people like who like you know W will immediately not Vibe with someone who's autistic but I don't know like I'm not going to hurt you I'm not going to bite you I'm I'm I I'm I'm nice and I have a lot of cool things to talk and I have a lot of cool things to talk about so if you ever want any info dumps about anything uh awesome there's what I'm trying to say is there's a lot of good about autism at least for for me and how I've kind of was able to self-actualize and stuff like that.
Kelsey: Because you're that's right because you're more likely to to be yourself and to follow the things that you're actually interested in instead of just doing it to please others.
Dash: Yeah exactly.
Kelsey: Yeah that's some awesome self-acceptance Dash I'm really glad that you were able to get to that point it's not easy a lot of people struggle to get to that to be able to look at themselves and and think you know I'm I'm a pretty cool person.
Dash: Thank you.
Grace: Um I'll say on my end this goes for autistic people and for anybody else um hold space for others and meet people where they are even if you disagree with them and like have judgments on what they're saying or who they are like definitely like if an autistic person is talking about their experience might not be the best idea to like deny that they're experiencing that and yep can we have some more empathy and like compassion in the world I think that is uh both for autistic people and for literally every human being on the planet um I think that's a wonderful thing that I that that that is really cool.
Kelsey: I know it's a very general answer but that sentiment is definitely shared and I think a lot of times what it's so difficult is that the expression of empathy for autistic people can be really different from the expression of empathy for a neurotypical person so when you're when you're talking about people holding space and being more empathetic to what you're going through what does that look like for you?
Grace: Um that's a really good question um for me I really appreciate like I I feel like I've had so many conversations where I am going through some stuff and I tell someone about it and then I'm just met with like what feels like a wall of solutions and answers and I appreciate that other people want to help but like and I know this is something that I struggled with a lot myself um and still often do um it's very easy to like want to fix people's problems and offer Solutions and um I don't know 90% of the time for me at least like it it feels so much better to be heard first and like just I I I don't know the classic I don't need answers I need someone to listen to to me like it's it's true and it it is real and it like does actually make a difference in people.
Kelsey: Definitely someone to just listen to what you're going through without trying to fix it.
Grace: Yeah and like if you have a solution that you think might help like you know um I I think the approach of like collaboratively exploring options together um and like taking a more Mutual approach to like if if they do want to find a solution then like I think that's something that can absolutely be done together uh but yeah anyways so were you gonna say Dash?
Dash: Um and in terms of like you know giving you know autis people like you know empathy and stuff like that I I think a really good way to and this goes for like any sort of organization that like deals with some social cause have if you're like don't just be a committee of people who call themselves professionals also have people who have personal experience with the thing on that committee like he that autism autism is a plate on society and it's a hardship on everybody like have people are autistic on your committee helping you like instead of becoming an elimin sort of group like I don't know an advocacy group have and maybe the autistic people can like tell you how they want to be advocated for um and mic drop or if you're like trying to like solve some sort of like I don't know food crisis in Uganda have have some Ugandan Farmers on your committee don't just say be like oh we're professionals and we're going to prescribe this [ __ ] for you because like I don't know I I ites it doesn't seem to 100% work for everybody and their needs if you don't really know what their needs are.
Kelsey: Yeah yep just a thoughts very true couldn't have said it better myself with that Dash.
Dash: Thank you.
Kelsey: Yeah I think a lot of research gets trapped in this if it's not normal must be deficient mindset which I really don't agree with.
Dash: Right yeah 100%.
Kelsey: And it's a shame because imagine the type of research the caliber of research and the variety of research that we could get without that.
Dash: EXA then I might actually be able to find actual research about autistic women instead of just finding it all about children or or research about people yeah or expecting fertility doctors to know about trans issues and hormones I feel like that shouldn't be such a large gap but it is right yeah.
Kelsey: Definitely agree with that I may be different but I'm also deficient in vitamin D I should go outside more that's funny and um so is there anything else that you'd like to talk about before we end our podcast today how are you doing?
Dash: I'm doing pretty good I'm doing good I just made a shirt that doesn't trigger sensory issues so I'm pretty happy with that.
Kelsey: That's good how is have how how what how is um how has how has um I forgot was goingon to say uh Grace with the weather [Laughter] um it's been rainy as [ __ ] what was I going to say I hate small talk so godamn I hate small talk too people always do small talk about everything can we talk about how what we what was your experience with a small talk you like when you were at the arcade?
Grace: Oh my God I was at like a company [ __ ] lunch and oh my God it was the most miserable thing in the world it was at an arcade which is just the most over stimulating place ever flashing lights and noises from a thousand directions and so many people just oh it was awful and then during the lunch like literally everybody no one would everyone refused to do anything but the worst just most like awful small talk in the world and I like randomly asked a person who I knew had a kid recently like what's it like being a dad because I want to have an actual [ __ ] conversation about something cool and interesting and he like it's all and then went back to small T I'm like what the [ __ ].
Kelsey: So you're over there trying to connect with him and asking like showing interest and asking the right questions and then you just shut down yeah that's rough I'm sorry.
Grace: But the Silver Lining is that I did uh at a different table I I met an autistic cool person who um I got to learn a lot lot about like bike routes in Atlanta area so that was that was that made of the lunch better.
Kelsey: That's awesome this is exactly why you know having representation is so important because if you if you go and join a new group or you go to a lunch and no you feel like you can't relate to absolutely anyone in the slightest it's really kind of isolating yeah.
Grace: Yeah because it's not that you don't want to relate I mean you're over there actually trying to talk to this other guy about what's it like being a dad I feel like that's a pretty open ended question and I'm surprised surprised you didn't get more more of an answer there I I know that a lot of people a lot of people would probably be very happy to tell you everything about their children I'm very surprised that that was a topic that was shut down so quickly.
Grace: Yeah um I will say one realization I had somewhat recently is like I was amazed that it I I always feel like uh often times in a group of people who are just making really awful small talk like I feel like I'm the only one who's in misery right now and who actually wants to have a real discussion um but the more I felt comfortable like opening up and actually starting those deeper discussions like it it a lot of people I was surprised and I think a lot of other people will be surprised if like you try this like a lot of other people also feel the same way and want to have more meaningful discussions on actual topics but also feel like oh but it's not societally normal to do that and forever yeah.
Kelsey: I I also wanted to mention that like most people actually do get dopamine from those surface level conversations really they do I know it was a total GameChanger they actually get dopamine from those surface level conversations and because sharing less is like sharing more so a lot of people are afraid to share things about themselves because they're afraid of being judged so and they still get that dopamine even from those really service level conversations so what what happens is that people want to be around other people and quote Vibe with those other people without actually sharing information and it makes it difficult for us because most neurode Divergent people connect over shared information and not over the general Vibe of the room so there's even a disconnect there.
Grace: I love shared information what that was my reaction when I found out too I was like you're telling me that when I say good morning to someone they get like a little dopamine reward from that and they do most people do and in fact I bet most people listening to this would probably be shocked to hear that a lot of us don't get that [Laughter] ever since learning that I think it helped a lot with small talk CU instead of it be becoming a chore like I have to do this because it's required socially everywhere I go it became more of a I do I I kind of would like to make other people feel that surface level happiness and it helped a lot it helped it helped tremendously because then I was a lot less focused on how boring it was for me and more interested like wow other people are actually getting happiness out of this.
Kelsey: That's a really interesting perspective yes so maybe that helps a little bit it definitely blew my mind to discover that it sounds like understanding yourself and other people better helped you reframe M talk in a way that made it more like enjoyable for you.
Grace: Yeah because even if I don't get that dopamine feedback if I know other other people are getting that it makes it a lot more palatable yeah yeah that makes sense like what I prefer to talk about your plan for the alien apocalypse heck yeah I would I would much rather talk about that than what the weather is currently doing.
Kelsey: But unfortunately when you're in a professional environment there are a lot of restricted topics and a lot of people wouldn't be interested in talking about the alien apocalypse uh what if scenarios so sticking to those surface level conversations is also a way to get through through that it blew my mind when I learned that there are like hidden rules of like neurotypic like culture and stuff like that and like some people will like say like one thing and then mean something completely different or like y give like an expression that means something and I'm just like wait you were saying that this whole time yep.
Kelsey: Yeah that the there that has a name and the name for that is called subtext and I am pretty blind to subtext as well I've gotten better at it in the last couple years but it's still really difficult because reading be reading between the lines it's really hard to describe it but it's like a blindness it's it's it's there is some kind of a binary Factor where other you want to communicate with another person but it's like you're speaking two different languages.
Grace: Yeah yeah yeah that's that that that gave me a lot of trouble when I was younger like trying to learn how to socialize with other people yeah and dig off on a bit of a tangent like um I am currently working to transition into a social worker out of engineering and I want to become a therapist specifically um awesome and for like the past two three years ever since I realized that this is what I'm passionate about doing like because of all of the trauma of like feeling like I'm just the absolute worst at talking to people um and trying so desperately hard to mask and be socially competent uh in a neurotypical way and failing miserably at it at every step of the way I'm like I I just felt completely hopeless of like I don't know how to have conversations with people I feel like my brain is fundamentally broken and I am just hopeless and I'll never be able to pursue this thing that I want to pursue um and I struggled with that for sever for like a couple years um and thankfully through meeting a bunch of more ner virgin people and learning about myself and through a bunch of therapy like um I realized that masking and um like I don't actually have to operate in conversations that way and I can learn to interact with social situations in a way that works better with me in my brain and that's awesome um after realizing that like I felt so [ __ ] being hopeful and happy and rejuvenated of like I feel like I've unlocked the secret of like I don't have to try to be someone that I'm not in order to interact with people I can just interact with people in a way that works for me.
Kelsey: Yeah and um so I've been that's awesome actually pursuing that path now to realize you're not a broken neurotypical person but you're a totally whole neurod Divergent person who still has worth.
Grace: Yeah turns out when I was uh reading how to influence and influence PE influence people and watching a bunch of YouTube videos on how to be more charismatic and how to have better conversations for hours and hours and hours on end and reading articles and trying to copy people's uh like copy people's uh way of interacting and forming very complicated uh comprehensive like uh um I don't know Al of algorithms yeah like if someone says this and this is what I say and I need to have every single conversation pre uh had in my brain or else I will completely fail like conversing um that's what masking looks like to the listener if you ever see yourself doing that um if if you see yourself memorizing 350 rules for a basic social interaction you might be Divergent.
Kelsey: Yeah yeah I'm laughing but I'm also serious like I could probably write down 350 social rules.
Dash: Honestly same I believe it um Onna if I don't know if you've seen the show the rehearsal by Nathan Felder that was so [ __ ] good it not to spil too much but it covers topic uh adjacent to this kind of um adjacent to this and it's it's a very good show I do highly recommend and also felt like a sucker gut Sucker Punch to my gut when I watched it first.
Kelsey: Yeah well thank you for sharing your experience about what masking is like I think that hearing that is going to be really eye opening for a lot of people cuz if you don't have to mask I mean it's it's mindboggling to think that 95 % of people just don't don't really have to mask or maybe they are masking but they're really good at that context switching behind it so they don't realize there's effort behind it that's another possibility too yeah I'm really happy that both of you were able to accept yourself for who you are and to be able to take off the mask particularly around each other because when you're masking all the time it can be really difficult it can create a burnout really quickly yeah I wonder if there's like anybody like who's in a relationship and they feel like unsa like unsatisfied and stuff like that and they don't know that they have like autism and stuff like that I would say there's probably a lot of cases like that Dash a lot of people even have to mask around their partner which kind of blew my mind.
Dash: Really yeah I definitely can't relate to that I got lucky to have a guy who will accept me exactly for who I am without needing to mask but there are quite a lot of people quite a lot of autistic people that have to mask literally 247 who would want to that sounds so exhausting like I feel like if you to your like your significant other like well it's kind of out of ignorance I think if you don't know you're autistic then you think you have to just try to force yourself to socialize in the same ways as everyone else and it affects everything yeah that's true I mean before I knew I was autistic I was like is this what being in a relationship feels like I mean put like so much effort to like I don't know exist with the other person.
Kelsey: Yeah well we're coming to the end of the episode but I I did want to say one last thing to both of you I am really really glad that in your journey discovering that you're transgender and discovering that you're also autistic I'm really glad that it hasn't resed Ed in a desire to create like a fake version of you you know what I mean both of you are on this life journey to be authentic to be yourself because you you wouldn't want to be anyone else you're going to show up as who you are whatever that looks like and I can't applaud you enough for that.
Grace: A thank you I will say I have tried to turn myself into fake versions of me throughout this process many times and every time it crashes in things um but I I appreciate that yeah and like this yourself thank you yeah I think it can it can get really difficult when you're when you're trying to create a new perception of yourself and still in that process you don't really know H how to be yourself authentically it can be difficult to learn how to do that but it's really important yeah yeah thanks.
Kelsey: Well thank you both so much for being on the podcast I I really appreciate it it was awesome to have you on here.
Dash: Thanks for having us Kelsey yeah Kelsey more like Coy.
Kelsey: Thank you I appreciate the nickname yeah make make make sure this part is in the in the in the in the in the published podcast this is important everyone should know that this is cool the cool SE.
Kelsey: All right I promise to include that well great thank you everyone for listening that I have a a fridge full of string cheese and it can't get any colder that's funny well thank you everyone for listening and I hope you have a great day thanks Kelsey thanks KY.